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TOPIC: Option to force players show their cards

Re:Option to force players show their cards 23 Jan 2011 03:23 #5824

  • Dawg
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LuisCypher wrote:
What i know, there is no rule which forces somebody to show his cards. So why should pokerth do so?

To thoroughly put this issue to rest, showing that there is such a rule, and that pokerstars and fulltiltpoker (and older versions of pokerth) have the more correct implementation-

www.wsop.com/pdfs/2010/2010-WSOP-Rules.pdf

"
63. At the end of the last round of betting, the player who made the last aggressive betting action in that betting round must show first. If there
was no bet during the final round, the player to the left of the button shows first, and so on in a clockwise direction. In stud games, the player
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with the high board must show first. In razz, the lowest board shows first. At showdown, any player at the table may request to see a folded
hand from any player who has called all bets on the last round of betting
. If a player with the last aggressive action on the last round of
betting refuses to show their hand and intentionally mucks his or her hand, the player in violation will receive a penalty, in accordance with
Rule No. 92.
"
Last Edit: 23 Jan 2011 03:39 by Dawg. Reason: highlight the relevent sentence
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Re:Option to force players show their cards 23 Jan 2011 13:21 #5837

  • fnam
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first i must admit: i am more like a beginner in the world of online-poker or poker at all.
so i dont know very much about the rules of texas hold em by now. :blush:
but:
as far as i watched hold em on TV i got the impression, that every player is trying to be "hard to read".
and i think that is the most interesting part of the game:
to learn how to read the other players and hide your own tactics or strategies.
so i think it is fair NOT to force to show a hand, that isn't called or has to be shown and compared to proof who is the winner of the pot.

e.g. if every other player folded, why should i show my hand?
the others gave up - for whatever reason - so why should i show?
and in every other case i HAVE TO show my hand to proof i am the winner.
(that's how i understood the rules - simplified.)
or am i wrong?
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Re:Option to force players show their cards 23 Jan 2011 18:33 #5838

  • PeteB
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Dawg wrote:
To thoroughly put this issue to rest, showing that there is such a rule, and that pokerstars and fulltiltpoker (and older versions of pokerth) have the more correct implementation-

www.wsop.com/pdfs/2010/2010-WSOP-Rules.pdf
[/quote]

As far as I can see, this rules are WSOP specific rules for all variants played at WSOP 2010 (check secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/2...orld_Series_of_Poker to see how many different variants are played). So this set of rules doesn't mean, that it's a rule for general Texas Hold'em.

Otherwise rule 54 and 55 (just english and no cell phones allowed) has to be implemented too ;)

Edit: But www.wsop.com/Poker-Games/Texas-Holdem/Rules talks about Texas Hold'em rules. Here is the relevant part about showing cards at showdown:

"Any player who has been a legal part of the game can ask to see a called hand, even if the cards have already been mucked. Abuse of this privilege can result in denial by the dealer."

It still is "only" the WSOP opinion of Texas Hold'em rules, I guess there could be other rules as well. "Abuse of this privilege" could be limited as a limited amount of asking to see hands. But then, according to the rules, it should be each player's own decision to muck or show hands at showdown (right now the program decides all that for you).
Last Edit: 23 Jan 2011 19:15 by PeteB. Reason: additional infos
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Re:Option to force players show their cards 23 Jan 2011 21:12 #5840

  • Dawg
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fnam wrote:
e.g. if every other player folded, why should i show my hand?

no, this issue has nothing to do with the case when all but one player folds. Likewise, I think D3VIL's comment may also be missing the point.
and in every other case i HAVE TO show my hand to proof i am the winner.
(that's how i understood the rules - simplified.)
or am i wrong?

This is ONLY about the case, when a player has called all bets down to the river, and loses, and does not want to show their hand.

The fact of the matter is that historically, I believe, at showdown, all hands were shown. It is only a recent trend to allow losing hands at showdown to muck if they were not the last aggressive bettor. To quote wikipedia (not worth much, but I already quoted wsop)-

"
There has been a recent trend in public cardroom rules to limit the ability of players to request to see mucked losing hands at the showdown.
"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Showdown_%28poker%29

The key part of that is "recent trend". So if pokerth wishes to be different than pokerstars and fulltiltpoker, and all the casinos that follow similar rules, I have no problem with that. But don't claim that doing so is following traditional poker rules, instead of being participants in a "recent trend".

The wikipedia page has 4 citations at the end of the quote, to cardplayer magazine and such. I am sure that if you need further context, it is all there.

The motivation for this is clear- If you call all bets down to the river, you show your hand to the table. Note, that as the beta4 season champion, and #1 rank holder for a few weeks back earlier in the current beta5 pokerth season, I'll willingly admit that I take full advantage of the current rules. In other words, I couldn't get away with some of the bluffs and tactics that I play with, if I didn't get to muck losing hands that I had called down to the river. If pokerth was implemented like pokerstars and fulltiltpoker, other players would get to see some of the crap I pull, and I probably couldn't get away with it as much as I do.

Honestly, this doesn't bother me, it's a fine 'house' rule. In the end subltely varying 'house rules' have always been a part of poker, and this is a fine one either way. But I did take offense to LuisCypher's dismissive claim that there was 'no such rule' and then suggesting this was a 'feature of desperation', instead of a 'feature of compliance to the more widespread adopted and traditional rules of poker'.

The way I view poker, it is only the weasels that call or raise a hand down to the river, then want to get away with losing without having to face the shame of showing the hand they were betting with all the way to the rest of the table. (that was flamebait, and I don't really mean it, but it expresses the school of thought to my side of the argument).
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Re:Option to force players show their cards 23 Jan 2011 21:20 #5841

  • Dawg
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note, the links in the wikipedia article I referenced in the prior post are broken. Here is _the_ link, which in my mind, quite authoritatively addresses this issue-

www.cardplayer.com/cardplayer-magazines/...howdown-shame-part-i
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Re:Option to force players show their cards 24 Jan 2011 22:16 #5851

  • NextName
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FWIW, I know next to nothing about online poker, but for live tournamenst, I've come about two "rulesets" which are honored by many organizers:

Robert's Rules of Poker
and
TDA (Tournaments Directors Association)


Last time I checked (about a year or so), there was no such rule to disclose a hand. The dealer is the only one who might look at the cards in case he's suspecting foul play.
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